Episode 70: Beyond “The Talk”: Unpacking Sex, Sexuality and Gender with Cory Silverberg
In this episode we chatted with Cory Silverberg. Cory is a sex educator, author, and queer person who smiles a lot when they talk. Cory teaches and talks with young people, adults, and professionals across North America about gender, sexuality, disability, and more. Their books for young people and families have been called “the books about sex that every family should read” by the New York Times and include the ALA Stonewall Honor Book Sex Is a Funny Word, and most recently You Know, Sex.
To see more of Cory’s work, check out their website, Facebook page and Instagram.
Transcript
Healthy Habits, Happy Homes Podcast
Season 7, Episode 70
Guest: Cory Silverberg
Marciane Any (0:05)
Hello, welcome to the Healthy Habits Happy Homes podcast hosted by the Guelph Family Health Study.
Tamara Petresin (0:14)
If you’re interested in the most recent research and helpful tips for healthy, balanced living for you and your family, then this podcast is for you. In each episode, we will bring you topics that are important to your growing family and guests who will share their expertise and experience with you.
Marciane Any (0:31)
Our quick tips will help your family build healthy habits for a happy home.
Tamara Petresin (0:41)
Welcome back to the Healthy Habits Happy Homes podcast. I’m Tamara.
Marciane Any (0:45)
And I’m Marciane.
Tamara Petresin (0:47)
And today we’re excited to have Cory Silverberg join us. Cory is a sex educator, author, and queer person who smiles a lot when they talk. They received a master’s degree in education from the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto. Since 1997, Cory has taught and talked with young people, adults, and professionals across North America about gender, sexuality, disability, and more. Their books for young people and families have been called “the books about sex that every family should read” by The New York Times and include the ALA Stonewall Honour Book, Sex is a Funny Word, and most recently, You Know, Sex. Welcome, Cory.
Cory Silverberg (1:20)
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Marciane Any (1:24)
So just to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your current role, and how your education and experiences led you to where you are now?
Cory Silverberg (1:34)
Sure. That’s a lot. So, I mean, so now mostly I write books.
So, I used to, I was, you know, worked as a sex educator. Often when people who are sex educators, they often either focus on an issue or sometimes on populations. So, most of my work was in the disability world, disability community. But for the past, I guess now, 13 or 14 years, I’ve been writing books for young people, which are also really books for parents. And so that’s mostly what I do. I write and then I go and talk a lot, a lot of times I talk to parents. Sometimes I go talk to young people. Then the project is sort of re-imagining of sex education that sort of really centres both on a queer way of thinking, but then also a disabled way of thinking. So, it’s very much, all of our work is grounded in, or informed by disability justice. So, it’s just a, it’s a different approach to things that we are always talking about.
Marciane Any (2:21)
Wow. Well, we’re really excited to have this conversation with you specifically, with all the expertise and background that you bring. To get us started and to set the stage for the conversation, can you please define sex, sexuality and gender?
Cory Silverberg (2:35)
Um, we don’t have time. So, sex, sexuality, gender. I mean, the thing is like our second book is called Sex is a Funny Word. And the reason that it’s called that is because the first thing I want young people to know, or really anyone to know, is that sex is just a word, right? It’s a word that we made up or that we’ve assigned, and we decide what it connects to. And not everyone agrees on that, right. So, some people, in fact, most parents when they hear the word “sex” in the context of education, what they think that means is I have to explain intercourse to my children, right? Because they think it’s about reproduction and they think the only way to reproduce is intercourse. And so then, understandably, they’re, like, you know, the parent of a four-year-old, is like, “I don’t want to do that because,” because in fact, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to start explaining intercourse to a four-year-old. It’s not what they need to know. It’s a weird way to start that story. So, sex is many things. You know, often we think about sex and sex has a bunch of different meanings, right? So sometimes we use “sex” to describe a way that we divide bodies. So that’s what we call “sex,” a sign at birth, often male or female, (although it’s more than that.)
“Sex” is sometimes an activity, a behavior. Sometimes we use that word to describe reproduction, even though it’s not, right? So, you can make lots of people make babies without ever having sex. And “sexuality” is a sort of broader term, right? So, sexuality often encompasses includes things like gender and who we are and how we feel and, you know, all sorts of things. But really, I would say, no, I can’t define those things because it’s not useful. Right? I can be useful for some people as a starting point. Like, that’s what the books are meant to be. They’re, like, here’s a place to start. But all of these things, all these all these words really matter in how we define them and how and what they do for us. So, I never start with, like, “this is what this means,” because, you know, I’m this, you know, 54-year-old white queer Jewish person, who has a particular experience of growing up in middle class Toronto. So, what all that means to me is very different than what it means to someone who’s had a very different experience growing up or who has a different experience today. So. So, yeah, so sorry. [laughter]
Tamara Petresin (4:44)
No, it’s all good. I feel like that makes a lot of sense that, you know, every single person on this planet experiences these things very differently. And so, it’s kind of hard to just give like a clear-cut definition, one size fits all, like because it just doesn’t seem to be the reality.
But I think a lot of parents—I don’t know if struggle is the right word—but struggle with that. Like, when do we start having these conversations? So, when is a good time to start exploring these topics with children?
Cory Silverberg (5:10)
I mean, the thing is, if you do it throughout from, you know, in some ways, some of this stuff comes up, you know, from birth. And so that’s not a conversation because you’re not having conversations with a newborn. So, the answer is always, like, adult sexuality is not the same thing as what we would think about as the experiences of a child. Right? And yet some things connect. So, for example, body autonomy. Right? So, body autonomy is key to us experiencing what some people would call healthy or safe adult sexuality. Right?
So, you can’t enjoy a sexual expression if you are, you know, deep in trauma or living in fear of violence. So, we need body autonomy, which means that I have the right to make the rules about how people interact with my body, how they touch my body, how they talk about me and my body. That’s what body autonomy is. So, from a very young age, even before we talk to them, we can be giving them as much body autonomy as is safe. Right? So, you’re not going to you can’t give a newborn full body autonomy because they might not eat. Right? And you can’t give a toddler full body autonomy because they might run in the middle of the road. So, it’s not about like, “hey, let’s do everything.” But we can start naming those things. Right? So, with babies, often one way people do this, and it’s both body autonomy and consent, is they’ll actually make it a practice to be talking, like, “I’m going to pick you up now and I’m going to change your diaper.” And of course, the child, the baby doesn’t understand those words, but it’s a practice. It’s a practice of building a relationship and naming body autonomy, naming what’s happening. So, it looks like that.
Again, with a child, a toddler or an adolescent, let’s say an adolescent who doesn’t want to get a shot and it’s time for flu season. And in our family, we get flu shots. We can say, “I know you don’t want to get this and we’re not giving you a choice. And here’s why…” Right? So, this is about safety. “And this is why we’re making this choice for you. And when you’re older, you will get to make this choice for yourself.” To me, those are conversations about sexuality. Right? Just as much as, like, you know, a kid sees a billboard, you know, for a vibrator, you know, I live in Toronto, so on the Gardner, [highway] there’s a big billboard. There’s a sex store that has this big billboard and they say, like, “what’s that?” Right?
That’s also a conversation about sex. Or where do babies come from? A conversation about sex. So, the thing is that we always have these opportunities. And part of what we need to do as adults is to start expanding our understanding of what sex is so we can look for those opportunities.
And the last thing I’ll say is, of course, parents do this all the time. They just don’t realize – they wouldn’t say they’re talking about sex. They wouldn’t say they’re doing sex education. And, you know, again, if you’re having a conversation about why your kid needs to get a flu shot, I understand that that doesn’t actually seem to be a conversation about sex. It’s not exactly that. But it’s a conversation that is building, it’s creating a scaffolding for what becomes sexual conversations later on.
And I hear a lot from parents with teenagers is this question about, “am I going to let my kid—I my kid has a partner, you know, and they’re 17 or 18, they’re still living at home. Are they allowed to have sex in the house?” What if I’m uncomfortable with that? That is a reality for more and more of us, because more and more of us have kids that are staying at home longer because it’s impossible to afford to live on your own. So, you know, there’s absolutely a through-line from these early conversations to that very tricky one. And part of the reason why these conversations are so hard for most of us is because we’re not doing it.
Right? So, of course, it’s weird. It seems so weird to talk to your kid about sex if it’s never come up, you know, because also a lot of us don’t talk about sex anyway.
Marciane Any (8:45)
No, so true. Such good points. I think it makes sense to, you know, lay that foundation early and expand our thinking because, you know, there’s so many other aspects, like body autonomy; that was huge. I was like, “oh, yeah, like, I wouldn’t have thought about that.” But that can lead into different conversations later on. So, all great points when we’re thinking about that, you know, I can still imagine there might be some parents who are still, maybe, uncomfortable, you know, in even these conversations. So how can parents create an open, nonjudgmental environment to talk with their kids about these different topics and what should be key talking points in these kind of conversations?
Cory Silverberg (9:27)
Creating an open, nonjudgmental environment. I think we just want to be real. Right? So, if we have judgment, we have judgment. And saying “I’m not judging” when you’re absolutely judging, that doesn’t help. Right? Because first of all, our kids know. I mean, everyone knows. Right? So, everyone knows the difference between a genuinely open, curiosity-based question and a question which is really about, like, “what are you doing and how are you either fitting or not fitting into what I expect of you?” So, I think it’s, sort of, in some ways taking, like, an inventory, like, for the parent or parents about where they’re at, like, what are they comfortable talking about? And then being honest with their kid. Right? So, it’s totally fine to say, like, this is actually awkward for me. And I know we need to do it because this is stuff, we don’t talk about. And there are some safety issues or whatever it is, you know, whatever reason you’re having for bringing this up. So, I think being honest is important, not expecting that you’re going to be OK with everything because no one is naming it. I would say it might be helpful for parents to distinguish in their own minds, values and information—factual information. Right? So, if you have a kid who you think is about to start having sex with other people, then you want them to know about things like condoms and protection. You want them to know a little bit about sexually transmitted infections. They need to know that. If they don’t know. It puts them at such greater risk. So that’s some factual stuff. Right?
But I have to say that that is not the stuff that most people are struggling to talk about or to learn about. It’s more about, like, well, “how do I decide and how do I know who to trust and what happens if someone breaks my trust?” And that stuff is – it’s not just values-based, but it certainly connects to our values in our community. And so, I want parents to know that stuff about sharing stories, for example, about how you were raised around these issues is so important, like, naming it, including things you like and the things you didn’t like. “I wish it was different. I really liked that, you know, that my grandmother talked to me about this.” So that is actually more important. I think it’s more important than how, you know, “this is what chlamydia is,” or “this is how you use lube,” or whatever it is, because young people can get that stuff in lots of places. I do have to say, knowing a lot of teenagers, they don’t. Right? So, it’s not like just because we have the Internet, it’s not like basic, reliable sex information is in the hands of young people who need it, because it just isn’t. So, yeah, I mean, that’s my first thoughts about this. Like, how can parents do it? I mean, they can talk.
And then the other thing is, like, of course, we can’t really in terms of getting to less judgment, we can’t do that unless we actually get an opportunity to work through our own stuff. Right? Which includes our own experiences of violence and trauma that many parents have not had the opportunity to work through. And it comes up at this moment. Right? Which is, again, of course, why it would be so hard to talk to your child about risk when you had an experience that you’ve never really been able to unpack. So, to do it, you know, to do it, you know, in a way that does feel like it’s not about us. It means that we have to take time to do that ourselves, not with our kids. I mean, in terms of the talking points, it’s, you know, it’s hard to say because, of course, the talking points for a six-year-old are different than talking points for a 12-year-old and different than talking points for a 16-year-old. But it always does come back. I mean, some of the common things are consent and boundaries and body autonomy. Right? So even, you know, so, the six-year-old is, like, “we don’t pull people’s hair,” or “we don’t touch people without asking.” Or if someone has done that to us, this is how we speak up or this is how we keep ourselves safe, which might include not speaking up. Right?
With the 12-year-old, it might be stuff about crushes. I mean, and, of course, it could be for the six-year-old may also have crushes, but I’m just speaking in generalities—things about crushes, things about relationships. You know, a lot of it is about presentation. Right? So, once a kid starts puberty—for all kids, but particularly kids that present more feminine—they’re going to start getting sexually harassed more. Right? And so, we want our kids to know about that. We want our kids to know that word. We want our kids to know. And it’s weird because until it happens, it’s very strange. Like, it’s hard to imagine for kids. But, of course, a lot of kids have had that happen well before puberty also. So, they know this stuff and they just don’t talk about it because, again, we’re not really encouraged to. It doesn’t come up in school. So, you know, so there’s that.
And then again, for an older teenager, it might be more specific stuff about sex: how it works. And then, also boundaries – what we want to do is not just help our child develop boundaries, we do that by giving them boundaries. Right?
So, this classic thing that comes up for a lot for parents with older kids about, like, I’m not really comfortable with this. But I think some parents think, like, well, they should be, right? So, parents who want to understand that sex can be a beautiful part of life and can be a site of growth and healing and all these things. So, they want that for their teenagers who are about to become adults. But they also are weirded out. So then, I mean, my advice is, like, well, that’s fine. You name that and then you can make some rules. The boundary might be, like, “I know you hang out at home with “X” partner, and you might be doing sexy stuff,” or whatever language you want to use. And “just where I’m at right now is, like, it really makes me uncomfortable. So, when I’m there, I want to ask you not to do that,” which is not about, you know, again, there can be boundaries. It’s, like, I’m not saying “don’t hold hands,” not saying “don’t kiss,” saying “don’t do more stuff than that,” you know, which is an example modeling, right? This is how I set a boundary, you know, and we can do it in a way that isn’t, you know, shutting the conversation down. It’s like, “this is where I’m at.” And, of course, everything’s open to conversation.
Marciane Any (15:10)
That was awesome. I took a lot of notes and it just brought to my mind, like, I just want to give a shout out to my mom because she really did model a lot of this, like, we would have conversations, you know, as young as like five or six about different things like consent, body autonomy, things like that, because she had some experiences where she wanted to make sure that I was safe and I was protected because, you know, the environment we were in and just the background I have, that was something that we just needed to talk about. But, you know, she was very honest about, like, “I’m uncomfortable.” And it was funny because as a kid, I’m like, “wait, like you’re an adult. Why does this make you uncomfortable?” We just sometimes have this, like, super-human view of our parents and forget that they’re human. So, I was happy that she was honest about that. And then, through the years, she would tell me, you know, the time she was uncomfortable or the times that she was unpacking certain things because she was, like, “this was my experience. I don’t think I fully healed from it, so and I’m doing the work, but this is what I learned so far. And this is even what I’m working on.” And just that honest conversation really helped so that, you know, even now I really do feel comfortable telling her anything. And it’s helpful because a lot of my friends, like, they didn’t have that. And I saw them go to other people around their age who also lack that knowledge. And so, I’m glad that there was that openness. I can be, like, “no, there’s someone experienced and wise I can go to,” so that it just helps me navigate it better. So, “thanks, mom.”
Cory Silverberg (16:45)
And I want to say that, like, that it’s—yes, I appreciate you saying that. I do want to say one thing, which is it’s confusing sometimes for parents because kids are so good at pretending, like, they think their parents are idiots and they don’t listen to their parents. But of course, they do. But I understand, for I’m also a parent, that it gets exhausting. You get worn down to the point where you do think your kids aren’t really taking what you say seriously, but they absolutely do. You know, and it often comes with a side of attitude, which is developmentally appropriate.
Marciane Any (17:15)
Yes. Even now I apologize to my mom all the time. I’m like, “teenage me, I don’t know where she came from. I’m sorry.” [Laughter]
Tamara Petresin (17:24)
Definitely. You know, hindsight is 20-20. It’s easy to look back on those conversations now.
But in the time, it was definitely a little bit different. But I think one thing, Cory, you mentioned how basic sexual information, like, people assume that that’s in the hands of teenagers and the hands of children, but, like, the reality is, is that it’s really not.
So, can you just chat a bit more about like, what are some of these misconceptions that children, at different ages, so, you know, maybe younger children versus teenagers, might have about sex and sexuality? And how can parents correct these in a gentle and informative way?
Cory Silverberg (17:56)
In a gentle way. Yeah, that’s really hard, right? Because it’s like part of it is about this dynamic where if we set up a dynamic where the parents are often correcting kids, which is just a classic thing, it gets hard to do it in a way that doesn’t make a young person feel defensive because they do feel like they’re being attacked. I mean, I think so.
So, are you asking about, like, the basic misconceptions that young people have about sex or that adults have about young people?
Tamara Petresin (18:23)
That young people have about sex. Yeah.
Cory Silverberg (18:24)
I mean, there’s a lot, I think. They change. No, I think I think one that never changes is the idea that everyone else is more together than we are. Right? So, this idea that that other people have more information, that they’re less nervous or freaked out, that they’re more comfortable, that they’re more, you know, once we get to people kind of pairing up and in tweens and teens age, this idea that like other people are seen as more desirable. “I’m never, you know, that’s not me. People are not going to want to date me. People aren’t going to want to find me attractive that way” and that we are the only ones that feel that way. So that is a very common thing. That’s, yeah, that’s a misconception because everyone struggles, right? So, everyone has struggles around this stuff. And the struggles are all different. And those differences matter. Everyone struggles. You know, I don’t know. I mean, I mean, there’s this, like, feedback loop we do. Parents do. And particularly now, particularly since like social media, where we parents talk about how like precocious or advanced kids are. “Kids are seen too much. Kids are growing up too fast.” And definitely, like, the beginning of COVID, like, the lockdown period exacerbated this, where young people are hearing over and over again that they are more mature than they used to be, or further along. But they’re not right. Because, like, it’s true that, like, 10-year-olds are watching TV that’s far more relational and complicated, that has more swear words, that has more sex. All of that is true. And they’re still 10 and they still have their lived experience of their 10 years in their body. Right? So, I think that there’s this weird thing where we’re all acting, like, I mean, again, where we’re acting, like, kids are out of control and kids are too advanced and all this stuff, which, again, is a thing that every generation does in their own way. You know, the problem, you know, the danger is, of course, that, you know, marketers and social media driven by capitalism use this because, of course, it’s a message that encourages young people to engage with content or buy things. Right? So, we say kids are more advanced and experienced and they’re all at Sephora buying, you know, face creams.
And because they’re watching, you know, whoever, influencers…. And that is all true. And capitalism is yet again winning over us. But it doesn’t add to their actual development or to their preparation for the world and for relationships and for things like sex and for boundaries, setting boundaries. I’m going to switch to a parent misconception, which is, like, “kids know so much.” And, you know, again, kids have words that adults don’t understand.
It doesn’t mean the fact that like a kid, like, uses a word like “skibidi” and a parent doesn’t know what the hell it means, doesn’t mean that kid is going to know what on earth to do if they have a crush and they’re not sure if they should tell anyone or if they’re being harassed. You know, if they’re a kid who’s going to end up asexual, like, they’re surrounded by people who all they do is talk and think about sex and they don’t care about that at all. As if there’s something wrong with them. Right? So, the fact that kids have new language, and I mean, you know, the difference with social media is just how fast all that happens. Right?
Because, you know, young people in the 1950s and 1940s had words that their parents didn’t use, but they travelled slowly, and they were in these little bubbles. And now it seems global. Right?
So, the thing that I’m always like reminding parents is that kids still need exactly the things that we’ve always needed. Sex isn’t any different now. Like, humans figured out all the ways to have sex. I mean, everyone wants to think this isn’t true, but it’s 100 percent true that all the way that you could have sex have been figured out. Right? If you think of human history, there’s nothing new. The fact that it has a new name or now comes with a, you know, a leather prop, it doesn’t make it new. So, there isn’t actually new stuff. There are new words. Right? But they describe the same things.
Tamara Petresin (22:19)
Yeah, I think that’s really helpful because there are, yeah. I mean, so many terms and, you know, “Gen Z” lingo. We all hear it and all of that stuff, too. And the fact that social media, yeah, like you are saying, how, like, it just makes it faster. But at the core of it, it is still the same topics. And, you know, kids still need to know about these basic things, I think. Yeah, I think that’s really helpful. Just like being, like, “wait a second here. Like, it is still fundamentally these core things that need to be talked about.” So, I think that’s a really useful way that you presented that. So, I really appreciate that.
Marciane Any (22:49)
So, I kind of wanted to switch gears a little bit. We talked about how, you know, all of our lived experiences are so different and that, you know, affects how we present in these different ways. And, you know, even your work with disability and sexuality, things like that. How can parents incorporate intersectionality into discussions about sexuality and gender and, considering factors like race, disability and socioeconomic background, and how to have these conversations when we think about intersectionality?
Cory Silverberg (23:22)
I mean, I think a lot of parents do because that’s actually their lived experience. So, in some ways, I think, I mean, this is a generalization, but I think it’s harder for a lot of white parents because they just don’t realize that race is something that affects them. Of course, it does. So, you know, what you had shared about your mom. Right? So, part of the thing is, if we are always starting conversations about sex or gender or whatever and grabbing them in our own experience, which can be our experience and our community’s experience.
And that might be my community. I might be talking about a community that’s connected to the land or to religion or to culture or to class. I think that’s one way of getting at it, because we all lead complicated lives of multiple identities. So that’s one way. I think one way is to bring it back to ourselves and to really think. Right. So again, it’s very easy, you know, heteronormativity or heteronormativity and capitalism encourages certain people to think that their lives are what’s normal and centred and therefore they don’t have to think about how complicated they are. So, we all need to think about the complications, how things didn’t work. You know, part of that is a question to parents think about, like, “in what ways when you were younger, did you feel like you didn’t fit in? What did you struggle with?” And you may not share the details of that with your kid. That might not be either appropriate or safe for you, but you can share it in general.
You know, you can answer that question and then turn it into, like, “I know that lots of people feel a certain way.” So, I think that’s one way to do it. And then I think another piece of it is we need to have community that doesn’t look like us and that doesn’t share all of our experience. And then we draw on that. Right? So, part of the question is, like, oh, well, you know, you’re having some conversation about, let’s say, bullying and let’s say someone said something homophobic or let’s say someone said something racist. You know, you can be thinking about someone in your in your life, or in your kid’s life, who has a different experience around these identities. And so, “I wonder how they would have felt if they heard that.” Or “do you think that would have been said if so-and-so was in the room?” — bringing other perspectives and asking kids, like, “you know, how would other people respond to this?” And young people are amazing at that. I mean, I’ve never had an experience with a young person where “that was a question that was hard for me to answer.” They immediately have answers about, like, “oh, well, no one would say that if so-and-so was in the room because it’s racist or it’s sexist or it’s whatever.” And they’re really, you know, “so-and-so would feel differently because they have, you know, they’re pansexual or they’re whatever.” So, I think those are two, kind of, approaches. And I think that, again, it’s tough for, you know, I talk to a lot of parents who themselves identify as straight and gender normative who have genderqueer or trans or non-binary kids. And often it’s the first trans or non-binary person they’ve really known. And, so, that’s tough! And they don’t know if it’s OK to, like, “can I go out and try to make community?” And the answer is “yes, you can.” And, of course, it has to be genuine. It can’t be transactional, but it’s a lot easier if we’re drawing on our community.
Marciane Any (27:42)
One hundred percent. Again, brought back to mind in those conversations, you know, my mom would talk about how different our experience could look like as Black women, you know, just in the context of our neighborhood. And then we’re also West African. And so that comes with its own uniqueness. And whether we’re in a space where, you know, we’re surrounded by people who look like us or not. And so, it was just very interesting. And we did even have some conversations where I was, like, “well, that’s not fair.” Like, my other friend who maybe didn’t develop as quickly as I did didn’t have to go and have certain attention that I had very young. And, you know, it’s going back to, exactly, because you are a full-figured Black woman. And this is what happens sometimes. But I appreciated the honesty, and it helped me just, again, navigate different tricky things a bit easier and know how to, like, protect myself, but even be, like, proud of myself, as well, because there wasn’t any shame about how I presented in the world. And, some might make me feel shame, but it’s just the way I am, and I should be proud. And so, I appreciated that we had all of those conversations, again, just as we grew up, especially because she shared that she did not have those conversations with her parents. And that’s everything she wished she would have been taught at those ages for me. So.
Cory Silverberg (27:43)
Yeah, that’s so amazing. And one of the things she’s doing there is she’s giving you language.
Marciane Any (27:47)
Yeah.
Cory Silverberg (27:47)
She’s giving you a framework. So, it’s actually, “oh, right. It’s not that,” you know, because if people don’t tell us this and everyone sexualizing us, everyone starts treating us like we’re much older than we are and the media and capitalism wants us to fall for that, to buy more things, to look older. It’s very confusing. It messes you up. So, yeah. So, what’s so important with what she did – so it’s not just the things she said, but, like it’s the modeling of, like, “we can actually talk about this stuff.”
Marciane Any (28:18)
Yeah.
Cory Silverberg (28:19)
And again, so I really appreciate you giving those specific examples, because to be clear, every family has that example. So it might be, like, you know, again, it might be like, you know, “we’re Catholic and white. And also, we have this situation. There was my uncle who dadada…” like, there’s always there’s always stories. And what our kids need and what they deserve, what we all need and deserve is to know that like there’s lots of options. Right?
Not, “this is the way you are. You’re normal or you’re not normal.” Right? “You’re a late bloomer or you’re an early bloomer.” Actually, there’s these forces but we get to be ourselves. And this sounds, like, I mean, your mom’s amazing!
Marciane Any (29:00)
Yeah, she’s pretty cool. I appreciate her.
Cory Silverberg (29:02)
Hopefully she’ll listen to this.
Marciane Any (29:03)
Yes, I hope so. I’m going to send it to her after.
Are there any resources that can help parents, you know, better be informed about these different conversations that we’re having?
Cory Silverberg (29:14)
So, there’s two approaches. One approach is that there’s lots of books for adults about sex. And so, to understand that, I mean, this becomes part of the responsibility. So even if it’s not a topic you really want to read a book about, it can’t hurt. So, our books are written for young people. But the number one thing adults say to us is that they learn things from our books. So, I actually almost suggest using books for kids first. And so, the thing to do, and we always suggest this anyway with our books, is for the parents to read them first, to read through it. And sit with it and think about it. And if you have someone to talk to about, you know, our books are organized around questions for people to consider. So have some conversations with people you trust, adults, about those questions. How would you answer those questions?
I’m also, like, I’m a big fan – so one of my close friends and work colleagues, Bianca Laureano, is always reminding me about youth mentors, right? So we tend to think that mentors are always older people, but you try to have at least one youth mentor in your life, which is probably going to be, I mean, ideally someone who’s older than your kids, who is someone you can learn from, who’s someone you can talk to and say, like, “I don’t know how to do this, and invite them to give you suggestions.” So that’s another thing. I don’t think there’s one way to do any of this stuff, so I don’t usually make specific kind of, like, you should do this.
Tamara Petresin (30:35)
Yeah, that’s so fair. It all is very, like, individual, and it’s going to change based on so many factors and be totally different, because we’re all different, and that’s the beautiful part of the world. [laughter] and the suggestion, too, for the youth mentor is actually really cool.
I feel like most people have probably never even considered that. I think a lot of the time, too, we just kind of see, you know, adults and people older than us as, like, the all-knowing, the wise people, but kind of flipping that sometimes and looking for, you know, because we can learn a lot from youth, too.
I think this question; it can be a bit challenging. I think a lot of parents, kind of, go through this, too, but: how can parents handle these different situations where other family members or maybe even, like, community influences present different or opposing views on sexuality and gender, and how can they kind of navigate these types of situations?
Cory Silverberg (31:22)
So, you mean when a kid is sort of out in the world and learning something that’s different than what we are teaching in the house?
Tamara Petresin (31:27)
Yeah.
Cory Silverberg (31:28)
Yeah. I mean, I think, the thing that parents know is it’s happening all the time, right? So, you know, when I interact with some parents with younger kids, some of them are, like, you shouldn’t talk about masturbation with, like, a nine- or ten-year-old, and, like, your nine- or ten-year-old knows what masturbation is. They might not know that word, but if you believe that a nine- or ten-year-old doesn’t understand they have a body, first of all, in a personal sense that they have a body or there’s parts of their body that feel good, I mean, that’s fine if you want to believe that, but you’re wrong. And then the other thing is, again, with media today, the ten-year-old has heard, probably heard the word masturbation, and if they haven’t heard that word, they’ve already heard a lot of jokes about it. So, our kids are hearing these things, and, so the idea that, like, we shouldn’t talk about them is, it’s not helping our kids. So that’s one thing.
And then the other thing is, of course, people are going to disagree about these things. So, to me, that’s just a teachable moment. Say, yeah, I’ll just pull one [example] out, right? “Like, yeah, it is funny that some parents seem to pull their kids on Orange Shirt Day in middle schools and elementary schools. Why do you think that is? Right?” And it’s an opportunity to talk about settler/ colonialism, and how some families don’t want to address it, and how some other families do. You know, I mean, it’s also the house rules, like, “so-and-so is allowed to stay out till “X” hour,” or with a certain-age kids, “so-and-so is allowed to walk home by themselves, and I’m not allowed to walk home by myself.” What’s, again, important is we’re always trying to teach about boundaries, and body autonomy, but in this case, let’s just stick with boundaries.
And so, we do that by modeling, right? So, the fact is, there are, again, the? are parents who sometimes who feel like they’re supposed to be okay with everything. They’re not supposed to be okay with everything. It’s fine for you to have your boundaries, including if they are “more strict” than all of your kids’ friends, right? That doesn’t matter. Your kids are not being raised by their friends’ parents. So, but naming it, right? So, and being willing, I guess the other thing is being willing to have the conversation, right? So being willing to hear it; and hear why it seems unfair. Of course, you know, the answer to, like, “that’s not fair,” is like, “that’s right, right? The world is not fair, and in fact, it’s not very just in a lot of times, and so we’re going to think about how we can move through the world, and try to think about equity, and think about justice,” if that’s the family values, but it’s not about like, “yeah, it’s fair.” It’s about naming it that’s right. We are constantly going to be coming up against things that are unfair, and so what are you going to do about it, right? So, I guess that’s the question for me, is, like, if there’s a conflict, so, this other family, you know, thinks it’s wrong to be gay, it’s like, “okay, that’s right. There are lots of people in the world who think that way, so what are we going to do about it,” you know? And there’s not a right answer to that, right? So, if the answer of the parent is, “it’s none of your business,” well, that’s the answer the parent gives, right? If that’s the family values, right? “Stay out of other people’s business.” If the answer is, like, “should we talk about having a pride parade in our neighborhood,” or whatever it is, I mean, the answer might be activism. The answer might be, “we keep, you know, we keep to ourselves.” Whatever it is, naming it. So, what’s important is that we talk about it, right? What’s important is that we not shut it down, and then also just obviously to be real about the fact that, like, “well, we don’t, we can’t control what other people think,” you know, but it becomes an opportunity to talk about, like, how does that show up, right? So, if so-and-so thinks it’s wrong to be gay, or so-and-so, you know, so-and-so uses like the F-word as a slur against gay people, how does that show up in class? Like, I mean, we want to help our kids. Our kids, young people are very good critical thinkers, but we want to also, and we want to encourage it. So, where is it showing up? How do you feel about it? To what extent does it make you feel uncomfortable or safe? How does that inform who you choose to be friends with?
All of this, again, is also scaffolding for: all of us pick bad partners at some point, right? So, everyone gets into a bad relationship, at least once. Some of us get into many, some of us stay with them for our lives. No one needs to be judged for that, right. No one needs to be told like, that, you know, “that’s wrong,” right? Because then we’re saying that person is wrong. Like, it’s not, it’s not what I want. It’s not what I want. What I want for my kid is to be in a relationship that is both safe and that, like, encourages their growth. So, all of it is an opportunity to talk about what our hopes are for the future and for our kids and for ourselves.
Marciane Any (35:41)
Absolutely. Something I’m hearing over and over again is communicate, communicate, communicate, you know, and it, it seems so simple, but it really is a big thing. I feel like there’s so much in the world that is, like, miscommunication. And if we could just get everyone to sit in a room and talk about it, it’d be so much better. But yeah, really communicating with your kids. And again, parents have so much to do. Like, I don’t have kids yet—and I’m excited to, but I’m waiting—but it’s easier said than done, but I’m taking notes now just to remember to keep that open communication. And even just, again, remember what my mom modeled for me as well, because she would say, “this is weird, but we’re going to talk about it.” [laughter]
Something else—and we’ve touched on it, how media, like books and television, social media, can impact children’s views and how even marketers how to target kids and get their attention about certain things. And so I wanted to ask, and you’ve probably touched on it also, but I wanted to ask more directly, how can parents, view this as really negative or discouraging, like, “oh, our kids are exposed to so much,” how can they instead use media as a resource to, you know, talk about these things and then have, like, open, helpful discussion about these things?
Cory Silverberg (37:06)
Yeah, that’s great. Which is what we want to do, because we can’t, we can’t stop it. We can’t stop social media. I mean, like, I think it’s hard sometimes, parents, because if you have a child from when they’re very young, you actually can control a certain amount, but at a certain age, you can’t. And so, the decision is either to, you know, give them tools, or to just close your eyes, and then they’re left to see. So, it is really media literacy, right? We just want to teach our kids basic media literacy. And, you know, they do in school, but they don’t always do a great job. So, you really at home want to go through it, right? And so, media literacy is this idea kind of developed in the 1960s that, I don’t know if I’m going to remember, but like sort of five guiding questions, like: Who made this; Who is being targeted here? What is maybe some of the things about intent? Definitely one of the questions is like: Who’s left out? Who are we not seeing? And also, one of the questions is: How do you think other people would respond to this? Right, so I may have got all five, and I just didn’t word them well. But you can just Google media literacy, and you’ll get those five questions. And we can just start asking those five questions all the time, right? Like when we’re watching, whatever it is, something on Netflix, or listening to something on the radio.
Again, young people, part of the problem is that adults do have a lot of attitude about young people, as if they see this media, and then they’re just going to do it, right? And, I say this all the time, right? Like if being exposed to a message over and over again, guaranteed that we do it, everyone would brush their teeth all the time, and everyone would go to bed, right?
And we don’t do those things. So, it doesn’t work that way: our children are not like robots or monkeys. And of course, as you said, we are absolutely influenced, and we experience pressure from the media. So, it’s just about giving kids media literacy skills. That’s a conversation that happens over dinner; that’s a conversation that happens all the time. Ideally, it is, again, it’s not sort of like a quiz, it’s more you asking, “oh, I wonder, who made this, right?” So, a show like “Heartstopper,” which is a show on Netflix, about kids in private school, and like gay kids, and it’s, like, you know, I mean, often you can tell when you’re watching something, was this made by the people who it’s representing? Or is it made by other people about people it is representing, right? And one of the things that, you know, that we can, you know, encourage and name for young people, of course, is that young people as an identity, young people themselves are constantly misrepresented. They’re almost never the ones that get to make the media that we see — mainstream media, because they don’t have access to that kind of power. They’re making their own media all the time, in art and playlists and language. And so, it’s not that they don’t, you know, they absolutely have that power and use it. But adults are always, you know, adults are always representing them, right? So, this, like, to me, like, there’s like the most messed up example of this is the show “Euphoria,” which I think is such an example of creepy pornography, because it’s this white adult who’s doing this stuff. And like, of course, the actors are doing a great job. I’m not criticizing the actors, nor am I criticizing the fact that they want that job. And so, then they go out and promote it. But it is so messed up. And it’s messed up that a lot of people think that that’s actually what all teenagers are like. So yeah, so I think that’s my answer for that.
Marciane Any (40:29)
No, all of those are really great points. I specifically circled in my notes, like the five questions of media literacy, because I didn’t even know that is like some of the conversations that we had with my family. So, like, I’m originally from Virginia, and there’s a lot of just messaging that seemed like it was not for us. And so, in not so many, you know, ways, like not formally, “oh, we went through the five questions.” But yeah, we did go through, okay, we’re seeing this ad, or we’re seeing this show or this movie, and a black person is being represented in a way that is so foreign to like, how we know, how we show up and are represented in this world. Like, who is this really made for? And was a black person even consulted? And, like, you know, like, what, what is this saying about our community? And is this a positive message or a negative message, and just different things like that. And I think, you know, even with this conversation, that’s so helpful, that’s so helpful to have, because then it can move into so many different aspects, and maybe even make the conversation a bit easier, because there’s already common ground, maybe that, like, we both think this is off. So, let’s unpack this together. So, I thought that was a great point. And yeah, young people are misrepresented all the time.
Cory Silverberg (41:48)
So, let me, you know, I did, I just looked it up. [media literacy] So I’ll just read what the five questions are. So, the first question is: Who created this message? Right? So that’s everything about, so all these questions can be really impactful. The second question is: What techniques are used to attract my attention? Right? So, what are they doing to get and hold my attention? The third question is: How might different people interpret this message? The fourth is: What is being represented, what lifestyles, what views, you know, who’s being represented? And then: Why, is the last question. And I think, these have been tweaked over the years. But there’s like, those are the basic ones. And yeah, as you said, like, it’s, it’s crucial. And lots of families do this in certain ways. And then lots of families don’t. And it’s interesting, again, the families who kind of move through the world, as if everything is centered around them, often don’t get these tools as much. Right? Because, you know, because, you know, if it’s like, “well, you know, you’re represented, you’re right there.” And so then, you know, we see this, and this comes up a lot in terms of like representations of masculinity that are being normalized that actually don’t represent how a lot of people who identify themselves as men or boys feel.
Marciane Any (42:57)
100%. No, I agree. Great questions. Great, great questions.
Cory Silberberg (42:59)
Thanks
Tamara Petresin (43:01)
Could you tell us a bit about any upcoming projects or resources that you’re working on, and where listeners can find more of your work, Cory?
Cory Silverberg (43:08)
So, I’m actually working on a new book right now. Slightly different topic. I’m one of those people who, like, I find social media very difficult. So, I’m only on it for work and when I have to. So, people can find me on social media, but I’m not posting all the time. The work is really the books, right? So, the, we have, there’s three books for young people. One is called What Makes a Baby. One is called Sex is a Funny Word. And one is called You Know, Sex. They’re for different ages. So, the first one is sort of for four- to six-year-olds.
The middle one is sort of for seven- to nine-year-olds. And the last one is puberty age. So really, it’s like that. And then I have a website. People can, you know, people can find me online.
Marciane Any (43:43)
Awesome. We’ll definitely have links to those, you know, on our website and also on our socials. To close out the podcast, we like to give families three practical take home tips. So, considering the topics that we’ve discussed today, what are three tips that you would like to share with our listeners about talking to their children about sex, sexuality, and gender?
Cory Silverberg (44:03)
Well, I guess if they’re listening to this, then the number one thing is gone talk to your kids about what you listen to, right? So just pick one thing from this podcast that you either liked or didn’t like, or that you weren’t sure about or something, and then share it with a kid in your life, which might not be your kid, because if you’re a very, very young kid, they’re going to be. like, I don’t know what a podcast is. So, that’s really like the big tip is, as you said, it’s like, it’s about – find opportunities to talk and then practice. And it gets easier. I guess that’s the other thing. I don’t know if it’s a tip, but I’ll just say, like, the more you do it, the easier it gets, right? It’s so hard to do because we don’t do it. There’s nothing inherently weird or strange about sex, gender, sexuality. They’re not different than math and nutrition and food and politics and any of these things. It’s just that we treat them differently, right? So it isn’t, you know, and I guess the last thing I’ll say is, like, be gentle with yourselves, right? So, like, because all of us, none of us, none of us got the sex education we deserved. And so, if you can’t imagine doing it, and if you’re struggling with it, at the very least, don’t tell yourself you’re a bad parent because you can’t do it, right? Because that’s not helping, right? So do what you can. The other, then I will say one last thing, which is about early on, you want to find other trusted adults that can be in your kid’s life, because if you can’t talk about this stuff, that’s actually fine, you shouldn’t, right? But it’s your responsibility to find some trusted adults that your kid can talk to, right? And know that doesn’t make you a bad parent. That actually makes you a great parent.
Tamara Petresin (45:33)
Yeah, that’s so true, too. Even just how you said, like, it’s true. It’s no different than all these other things that you listed. It’s just we really do treat it differently, like as a society. And it has been the way and the case for so many years. But, yeah, I think one big takeaway, too, that I took away from this podcast, it was just like that kids appreciate realness, like, just being real, being open, being honest. If you are uncomfortable, say you’re uncomfortable. Like, it’s so true. And even the talks about boundaries, I feel like you brought in so many other things that people don’t usually relate to talking about sex. And so, I feel like that was really, really helpful. So, thank you so, so much, Cory, for taking the time. o chat with us about sex and sexuality and gender, and for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us on the Healthy Habits Happy Homes podcast.
Cory Silverberg (44:14)
Thank you. Thank you for your questions.
Marciane Any (46:15)
You’ve provided us with such helpful tips. And we hope our listeners can take away some of these useful tips that you’ve shared. And we’ll see you next time.